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Should Wang Xiaoming Senator and Wang Dr Xiaoming read the title, where CLDR writes surname-first names? #938
Description
Under name_order=FAMILY_FIRST the parse reads a bare title only at the front of the name:
| Input | Reads |
|---|---|
Senator Wang Xiaoming |
title Senator |
Wang Xiaoming Dr. |
title Dr. (period-marked, rules/H5) |
Wang Xiaoming Senator |
middle Senator |
Wang Dr Xiaoming |
given Dr, middle Xiaoming |
CLDR's surname-first sample renderings mostly put the title elsewhere: 50 of the 70 renderings that hold a title and a surname put it after the surname. pt puts it between the family name and the given name, and ja and zh put it last. A name written in those positions is misread today.
The question is whether a family-first order should read a title in those positions, and how. A bare title word ending a name is deliberately a name word under the default order, because many titles are also surnames (Mary Jane Pope). So the answer probably holds only under a family-first order, where the family name has already taken the front, or only for titles that are never names.
Once the parse reads a title there, the 3.0 family-first render default (#754) can put it there too. Until then it keeps the title first, because the default renders only an order the parse reads back.
Measured 2026-10-28: the table with Parser(policy=Policy(name_order=FAMILY_FIRST)); the CLDR count over tools/differential/cldr_fields.jsonl's nativeFull surnameFirst renderings, by the positions of the field values in the text.
Activity
Design 3.0's language packs and output model (#753, #754) (#940)
Accept #938's readings and widen the inventory to the sweep items
Hold every inventory position to its text; finish #938's decline
List the shape inventory per name order (3.0, 4h) (#974)
derek73 commentedon Oct 31, 2026
Declined on measurement, recorded in
docs/design/decisions/H5-trailing-title-run.md(2026-10-30, landed with #974).Real names written family-first in Latin script put the title in front:
Mr. UEDA Kazuostyle)The Hungarian sample has 4 names with a title after the name, all period-marked and already read as a title by rules/H5. The CLDR renderings this issue cited (50 of 70 with the title after the surname) come from templates, not from names anyone wrote.
So
Wang Dr XiaomingandWang Xiaoming Senatorkeep today's readings underFAMILY_FIRST. The 4h shape inventory (#974) pins them as accepted, and the entry's Recompute bullet gives the recipe.The survey did find one non-front shape that real names use: a Hungarian married name with the title after the
-néword (Bakainé dr. Korbács Melinda, 102 of 37,250). That is recorded as an Open item for a future Hungarian pack, not as part of this issue.